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Post by Simona Weil on Jun 27, 2004 2:07:10 GMT -5
I sound so paradoxical, but oh well.
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Post by Zinn on Jun 27, 2004 2:10:53 GMT -5
I think this doesn't have an answer. I agree, it is a paradox. We could probably argue about it as long as we live, and not achieve and answer. I propose we accept that and move on. Agreed?
I've found your argument very interesting and well thought out.
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Post by Simona Weil on Jun 27, 2004 2:16:31 GMT -5
Well thankyou, you are impressively smart and asked me some difficult questions.
It was a good discussion.
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Post by Zinn on Jun 28, 2004 14:00:07 GMT -5
I'd like to create a small, splinter group of Anarchists to go deep into Red Infinity territory and fight from there. If I could get a few people to go, would that be OK?
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Post by Simona Weil on Jun 28, 2004 16:43:42 GMT -5
Sure, that sounds like a great idea.
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Post by Zinn on Jun 28, 2004 23:41:42 GMT -5
I contacted Wyrm and Sasha. I think their skills would be extremely useful. I don't know if they're interested or anthing yet. That remains to be seen.
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Post by Zinn on Jun 29, 2004 11:30:03 GMT -5
You know, you're welcome to come too, Simona. That is, if you don't mind giving up being leader directly for a while. If there is a small enough group, leadership is unnecissary. It could be fun, and you could still be in charge of the others remotely, by transmitting a daily message so they know how we're doing.
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Post by Zinn on Jul 1, 2004 22:15:28 GMT -5
Attn: Anarchists
Zinn's apartment is located on the fifth floor of an old building in Capital City. It is room 544.
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Post by Simona Weil on Jul 8, 2004 5:40:18 GMT -5
I copied this info from an anarchy site, but it is about religious anarchists..... A.3.7 Are there religious anarchists? Yes, there are. While most anarchists have opposed religion and the idea of God as deeply anti-human and a justification for earthly authority and slavery, a few believers in religion have taken their ideas to anarchist conclusions. Like all anarchists, these religious anarchists have combined an opposition to the state with a critical position with regards to private property and inequality. In other words, anarchism is not necessarily atheistic. Indeed, according to Jacques Ellul, "biblical thought leads directly to anarchism, and that this is the only 'political anti-political' position in accord with Christian thinkers." [quoted by Peter Marshall, Demanding the Impossible, p. 75] There are many different types of anarchism inspired by religious ideas. As Peter Marshall notes, the "first clear expression of an anarchist sensibility may be traced back to the Taoists in ancient China from about the sixth century BC" and "Buddhism, particularly in its Zen form, . . . has . . . a strong libertarian spirit." [Op. Cit., p. 53, p. 65] Some combine their anarchist ideas with Pagan and Spiritualist influences. However, religious anarchism usually takes the form of Christian Anarchism, which we will concentrate on here. Christian Anarchists take seriously Jesus' words to his followers that "kings and governors have domination over men; let there be none like that among you." Similarly, Paul's dictum that there "is no authority except God" is taken to its obvious conclusion with the denial of state authority within society. Thus, for a true Christian, the state is usurping God's authority and it is up to each individual to govern themselves and discover that (to use the title of Tolstoy's famous book) The Kingdom of God is within you. Similarly, the voluntary poverty of Jesus, his comments on the corrupting effects of wealth and the Biblical claim that the world was created for humanity to be enjoyed in common have all been taken as the basis of a socialistic critique of private property and capitalism. Indeed, the early Christian church (which could be considered as a liberation movement of slaves, although one that was later co-opted into a state religion) was based upon communistic sharing of material goods, a theme which has continually appeared within radical Christian movements (indeed, the Bible would have been used to express radical libertarian aspirations of the oppressed, which, in later times, would have taken the form of anarchist or Marxist terminology). Thus clergyman's John Ball's egalitarian comments during the Peasant Revolt in 1381 in England: "When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then a gentleman?" The history of Christian anarchism includes the Heresy of the Free Spirit in the Middle Ages, numerous Peasant revolts and the Anabaptists in the 16th century. The libertarian tradition within Christianity surfaced again in the 18th century in the writings of William Blake and the American Adam Ballou reached anarchist conclusions in his Practical Christian Socialism in 1854. However, Christian anarchism became a clearly defined thread of the anarchist movement with the work of the famous Russian author Leo Tolstoy. Tolstoy took the message of the Bible seriously and came to consider that a true Christian must oppose the state. From his reading of the Bible, Tolstoy drew anarchist conclusions: "ruling means using force, and using force means doing to him whom force is used, what he does not like and what he who uses force would certainly not like done to himself. Consequently ruling means doing to others what we would not they should do unto us, that is, doing wrong." [The Kingdom of God is Within You, p. 242] Thus a true Christian must refrain from governing others. From this anti-statist position he naturally argued in favour of a society self-organised from below: "Why think that non-official people could not arrange their life for themselves, as well as Government people can arrange it nor for themselves but for others?" [The Anarchist Reader, p. 306] Tolstoy urged non-violent action against oppression, seeing a spiritual transformation of individuals as the key to creating an anarchist society. As Max Nettlau argues, the "great truth stressed by Tolstoy is that the recognition of the power of the good, of goodness, of solidarity - and of all that is called love - lies within ourselves, and that it can and must be awakened, developed and exercised in our own behaviour."
Like all anarchists, Tolstoy was critical of private property and capitalism. Like Henry George (whose ideas, like those of Proudhon, had a strong impact on him) he opposed private property in land, arguing that "were it not for the defence of landed property, and its consequent rise in price, people would not be crowded into such narrow spaces, but would scatter over the free land of which there is still so much in the world." Moreover, "in this struggle [for landed property] it is not those who work in the land, but always those who take part in government violence, who have the advantage." [Op. Cit., p. 307] Thus Tolstoy recognised that property rights in anything beyond use require state violence to protect them (possession is "always protected by custom, public opinion, by feelings of justice and reciprocity, and they do not need to be protected by violence." [Ibid.]). Indeed, he argues that:
"Tens of thousands of acres of forest lands belonging to one proprietor -- while thousands of people close by have nno fuel -- need protection by violence. So, too, do factories and works where several generations of workmen have been defrauded and are still being defrauded. Yet more do the hundreds of thousands of bushels of grain, belonging to one owner, who has held them back to sell at triple price in time of famine." [Ibid.]
Tolstoy argued that capitalism morally and physically ruined individuals and that capitalists were "slave-drivers." He considered it impossible for a true Christian to be a capitalist, for a "manufacturer is a man whose income consists of value squeezed out of the workers, and whose whole occupation is based on forced, unnatural labour" and therefore, "he must first give up ruining human lives for his own profit." [The Kingdom Of God is Within You, p. 338, p. 339] Unsurprisingly, Tolstoy argued that co-operatives were the "only social activity which a moral, self-respecting person who doesn't want to be a party of violence can take part in." [quoted by Peter Marshall, Op. Cit., p. 378]
From his opposition to violence, Tolstoy rejects both state and private property and urged pacifist tactics to end violence within society and create a just society. In Nettlau's words, he "asserted . . . resistance to evil; and to one of the ways of resistance - by active force - he added another way: resistance through disobedience, the passive force." [Op. Cit., p. 251] In his ideas of a free society, Tolstoy was clearly influenced by rural Russian life and the works of Peter Kropotkin (such as Fields, Factories and Workshops), P-J Proudhon and the non-anarchist Henry George.
Tolstoy's ideas had a strong influence on Gandhi, who inspired his fellow country people to use non-violent resistance to kick Britain out of India. Moreover, Gandhi's vision of a free India as a federation of peasant communes is similar to Tolstoy's anarchist vision of a free society (although we must stress that Gandhi was not an anarchist). The Catholic Worker Group in the United States was also heavily influenced by Tolstoy (and Proudhon), as was Dorothy Day a staunch Christian pacifist and anarchist who founded the paper the Catholic Worker in 1933. The influence of Tolstoy and religious anarchism in general can also be found in Liberation Theology movements in Latin and South America who combine Christian ideas with social activism amongst the working class and peasantry (although we should note that Liberation Theology is more generally inspired by state socialist ideas rather than anarchist ones).
In countries where Churches hold de facto political power, such as in Ireland, in parts of South America, in nineteenth and early twentith century Spain and so forth, typically anarchists are strongly anti-religious because the Church has the power to suppress dissent and class struggle. So, while most anarchists are atheists (and so agree with Bakunin that if God existed it would be necessary, for human freedom and dignity, to abolish it) there is a minority tradition within anarchism which draws anarchist conclusions from religion. In addition, most social anarchists consider Tolstoyian pacifism as dogmatic and extreme, seeing the need (sometimes) for violence to resist greater evils. However, most anarchists would agree with Tolstoyians on the need for individual transformation of values as a key aspect of creating an anarchist society and on the importance of non-violence as a general tactic (although, we must stress, that few anarchists totally reject the use of violence in self-defence, when no other option is available).
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Post by Zinn on Jul 10, 2004 23:30:00 GMT -5
That was very enlightening. Thanks.
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Post by Zinn on Jul 12, 2004 12:00:48 GMT -5
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Post by Matsumura on Aug 26, 2004 14:22:53 GMT -5
Ever read Rag Time? If not, you should. Something weird though, Alexander Berkman was referred to as Sasha... and there's an anarchist named Sasha on the board. Coincidence? Seems like Sasha Kropotkin was named after Peter Kropotkin and Alexander Berkman.
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Post by Zinn on Aug 26, 2004 22:37:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I know. Sasha's adopted father was Peter Kropotkin. I figured he was a reference to the anarchist communist of the same name.
I didn't know about the Sasha part though.. I figured it was just an androgynous sounding name.
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Post by Matsumura on Aug 27, 2004 0:25:52 GMT -5
Well, it is androgynous sounding as well. And it may just be a coincidence. That'd be hilarious. So Sasha, did you know that Sasha was Alexander Berkman's nickname or is this all just a big coincidence?
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