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Post by Josef Stalin on Dec 9, 2004 19:25:33 GMT -5
I'm aware of all that. When I said none have absolute power I was referring to the mockery of a Socialist government that the man I RP as, Joseph Stalin, made.
Ok, granted most people in America aren't Socialists. Doesn't mean anything. If the system is Socialist and laws are in place to prevent the system from going Capitalist again, the council could be made up of Nazis--scratch that... that's going too far.--could be made of Seinfeld, Mussolini, Aerosmith and Ozzy Ozburne for all I care.
If the system is a Socialistic one, and the council only makes decisions on issues; e.g. Where the extra fat of the funding should go to this month, which country needs the most support, etc. etc., then the system doesn't need to be made up of entirely Socialists. It's good to mix and blend, as Void said. Getting to hear other's opinions, no matter how skewed and biased they are, is an important part of being a leader.
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Post by Zinn on Dec 9, 2004 20:44:11 GMT -5
Politics mod: Please remove that comment about mental illness. In a debate or discussion, if someone misunderstands you, it is entirely your fault for not being clear enough. Then, a simple, polite clarification is the way to go. Insulting and demeaning the intellegence of others is not allowed, and detracts from intellegent discussion. You were unclear, and didn't specify whether you were contrasting with the Soviet Union or The United States.
If you have a system that is based on the election of leaders, those leaders will reflect the views of the public. If the public is not mostly socialist, then they will not elect socialist leaders.
That's the way the government works now. The Constitution is the set of guidelines that provides unalienable rights. Having a set of rules vast enough to limit people's power so they can't make any real descisions would not only be nearly impossible, since every aspect of government can be influenced in a non-Socialist manner, but they would have to be updated by someone. We need new laws to adapt to new things, new information, and new times.
Also, you can't possibly expect people that do not agree with a system to agree to implement it. If laws are wildly unpopular, they won't be followed, and if the leaders dislike the laws, they won't enforce them.
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Post by Josef Stalin on Dec 9, 2004 21:15:58 GMT -5
Point taken... d**n, now I see WHY Stalin killed so many people. The slaughter of all whom oppose you seems so much easier than thinking of new ways to run a government...
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Post by Zinn on Dec 9, 2004 21:22:42 GMT -5
I am against killing everyone that disagrees with you. That's one of the reasons I like America.
There is some adjustment that needs to be made though. The way the police act at protests should be illegal. If there is a gathering of Grannies for Peace, or a pacifist organization, or a PEACE protest, why the hell do you need a SWAT team?
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Post by Freak Boy on Dec 9, 2004 21:26:04 GMT -5
I agree. It should be illegal. I still have a bruise from my last protest. I got hit with one of those beating night-stick things.
What's most annoying though are the "warning shots" and tear gas...
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Post by Void on Dec 10, 2004 3:21:34 GMT -5
If a protest turns violent I fully support the right of the police to use nonlethal force in order to quell the violence. I do not feel the right to protest gives you the right to destroy the property of others or harm other people. If the warning shots and tear gas are used on a peaceful protest, however, that is another matter entirely.
I admit I haven't had much experience with protests beyond what I saw of WTO when they came to Seattle several years ago, and I was not in the area because it was rather dangerous. If the protest is peaceful, there should be no need for force, but there always is a possibility of a protest turning violent, and the SWAT team merely BEING there isn't in violation of anyone's rights, I wouldn't think. So long as they and the protesters are courteous, then it shouldn't be a problem.
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Post by Zinn on Dec 10, 2004 17:04:54 GMT -5
I have never been to a violent protest. I belong to a pacifist organization called Women in Black. Basically, we get together and stand where ever we are staging the protest with signs, silently. We all wear black, and we protest for issues pertaining to feminism, peace, abortion, and gay rights.
I have been to larger protests though. Those are the ones with the SWAT teams. I feel that they are unecissary at most protests. I have been to protests where there were a few wackos, but nothing worth a whole swat team, with shields, etc. My friends that have been arrested were arrested for protesting in a park after the city told them not to. They are all non-violent. They usually just have the SWAT team there, surounding everyone in a certain radius. It makes me uncomfortable. I've never been hit with tear gas or a baton. None of the protests I have ever attended have ever gotten out of hand enough to warrant that. The problem with the police radius is that if things do get out of hand, people can't leave or get out. The tear gas and such can cause panic, and then people get trampled.
What went on in Seattle was a travesty. I find it offensive. I am against the WTO's policy of exploiting third world countries, but a riot only makes a cause look dangerous and ignorant. As I have said before, the right to swing your fist in America stops at a person's face. As soon as a person gets aggressive, they make their argument weaker.
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Post by Freak Boy on Dec 10, 2004 17:16:18 GMT -5
I've only been to two WTO protests, and both of them were more violent than a mosh-pit. That's when I stopped joining their protests.
Anyway, in my case, I think the guards in 3 out of 5 instances didn't need to use excessive force. Those are not worth mentioning, as it is only building on the point Zinn made. But the other two... well, this is when SWAT teams are acceptable and they have a right to grab people.
1.) This was a protest to the eurocentrism in our text books. The books were completely biased portraying people who were nothing but murderers, General Custer, or racists, Sam Houston, as heroes. The SWAT team showed up, some protesters started an assault and then things got out of hand. I picked up a trash can and threw it at one SWAT guy, hit two more with a baseball bat and then got clubbed over the head with the stick thing. My parents weren't too happy about that...
2.) We were protesting the far right's domination of our teaching. This was different than the previous because we weren't protesting eurocentrism. We were protesting the fact that in health class, they taught nothing but abstinence. No birth control pills, no condoms, no day-after pill, not even the sponge... JUST abstinence. Now, we have a sophomore that's pregnant and having her second child, 3 more pregnant sophomores, 2 pregnant freshman, 5 pregnant juniors and 10 pregnant seniors.... yeah, abstinence is working.
In the protest, I will admit I was a little drunk, I got on top of this statue and started shouting about the far-right, mussolini's tyrannical rule and the similarities between Bush and Hitler. The SWAT had enough and they tried to pry me down. I kicked one down from there and the crowd started getting rowdy. Things progressed and tear gas was thrown into the crowd. I was standing right next to one of them when it went off. The smoke burns.... Even while blinded, I still fought back as best I could. I could still see blurred figures, but not much else. Anyway, I spent about 3 nights in Juvie for that...
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Post by Zinn on Dec 10, 2004 17:25:01 GMT -5
You don't have the right to throw trash cans or hit people with baseball bats. Those aren't protests, those are violent wastes of time. It only makes people who are protesting for the same causes in non-violent, educated ways look bad. I have to say that I find your actions reprehensible. You don't have the right to climb up a statue when you are drunk and shout about how Bush is a "fascist."
If you want to get a better curriculum, start a petition, go to a PTA meeting, join the campaign for a school board official that better matches your views, fundraise for new text books, or start a history club.
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Post by Freak Boy on Dec 10, 2004 17:36:03 GMT -5
Ok, I will admit... that was pretty stupid. So was the baseball bat/Trash can incident. But those were the ONLY two times I deserved it.
The first time I was holding up a sign that said "Who Would Jesus Kill?", protesting the death penalty. Someone in the crowd went a little nuts and because I was a few feet from him, I got caught in the onslaught. I tried to get out of there but they cuffed me.
The second time I wasn't even in the protest. I was walking to McDonalds and some pro-choice group was getting policed. I try to cross as far as I can but some protester gets thrown into me and when the cop showed up we were both cuffed.
Fourth time I was making a speech on how Texas is the only state to have bell-curve testing (under Bush's governing). It was bad enough that the intelligent had their grades pulled down, but we were allowing people like Bush to get grades they didn't earn. Anyway, I'm making this speech and I guess the forces above decide it's too "vote for Kerry because Bush is going to lead us into WWIII.". So they come up on the stage and just YANK ME AWAY from the mike. I'm being carried off, I know I'm screwed either way so I keep shouting about the government's conspirating and silencing of those who just might be able to help this country become free again and out of the grasps of the corporations and right wing fascists. Then to shut me up I got hit with mace.... THAT STUFF BURNS!!!
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Post by Zinn on Dec 10, 2004 17:46:45 GMT -5
These are the protest rules that my group follows. Perhaps they will help you in the future.
1) Remain non-violent. If the cops attack you, and you do not fight back, then you are still in the right. It only makes them look bad.
2) Go with a group, or at least a buddy. That way, you are slightly separated if someone whacks out. Also, if your group is calm and you are all wearing the same sort of thing, the cops will know that you are uninvovled. That's the other reason we all wear black.
3) Don't talk, unless you are chanting. Do not separate yourself from the mass. If you do, you will be arrested. Also, do not use a mike, megaphone, or a podium unless the city gives you permission. Otherwise, you will probably be charged with disturbing the peace. It is also easier to be approved for that sort of thing if you have a group.
4) Do not use profanity on your signs. It only makes you look ignorant.
5) If you are arrested, do not say anything, and do not struggle, even if you are innocent. You can prove yourself innocent in court later, and the cop in question will probably be giving testimony. If you are polite to him/her, they'll have a harder time convicting you.
6) If you are speaking in public, do not say anything that will even imply that you are inciting violence. The cops will arrest you.
As for the abortion thing... How the heck could you not notice a protest was going on? Gee, that makes me feel great, that people are noticing that people are protesting...
I hate McDonalds. I have been boycotting them for nine years. I even boycotted them before I was a vegitarian. They do so many awful things on so many levels. I would recommend Fast Food Nation: The Dark Side of the All American Meal.
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Post by Void on Dec 10, 2004 17:53:55 GMT -5
I'm not saying that the police forces are always in the right, but as demonstrated, neither are the protesters. I do feel that a city has the right to assemble some sort of protective force in the event that a protest does get out of hand, just as the protesters have the right to protest in a peaceful manner. As Freakboy so aptly demonstrated, things CAN and DO get out of hand, and I do not think it unreasonable to take precautions.
That being said I also believe that a city has the duty to ensure that such precautions aren't infringing upon the rights of the protesters. Those assembled to protect the city should make no threatening movements and should treat the protesters with courtesy and respect, as the protesters shoudl treat the bystanders and the assembled forces with courtesy and respect. If either side crosses the line, it is a reprehensible action that deserves to be punished.
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Post by Zinn on Dec 10, 2004 17:58:16 GMT -5
I've been insulted by the police. They called us "stupid liberal lesbos" or something along those lines. We took down the cop car number and reported the incident, but nothing was done about it.
Protests happen every day in America. The vast majority are non-violent.
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Post by Freak Boy on Dec 10, 2004 18:09:27 GMT -5
I think those rules are all very good. As I stated before I do have some anger management issues, but I'm trying to gain control.
As for the protest thing: I did notice it. That's why I tried to avoid it. I'm all for abortion, gay marriage, birth control and stem cell research. The reason I couldn't avoid it is because I was on the walkway near a very busy highway. They covered the entire grassy field on the side and that's where the SWAT and them duked it out. I stayed as far to the sidewalk as I could, not wanting to get hit by a car. That's when I got hit by the protester...
[initiate Ranting sequence]Don't even get me started on McDonalds. While I may not agree with them on alot of points, I'm still appauled that those fat guys sued McDonalds. Why?
[Rant Begin] Because they were too fat! Far be it from them to admit that they should have stopped eating after the 15th burger. Nope, the fact that they had a fat ass was not their fault... nope. It's McDonald's fault.
What sickens me even more is that a lawyer was willing to take the case!! Some lawyer out there was just like, "Uh huh. Yeah, I think we can pull this off! We can sue these guys because your ass is bigger than the Titanic."
I mean... WTF?!! What do you say when you take the stand? "Yes, your honor, I'm a fat bastard and it's all their fault." I mean, blaming McDonalds for being a fatass is NOT good. It's like saying, "We're too dumb to realize that greasy food chocked full of fats, carbs and oil was bad for our health and would make us fat. Can we have some money now?"
Who the hell believes a case like that! Everyone knows McDonalds is bad for you, if you eat it regardless it's your own decision!! I mean, I wish someone just stabbed those money hungry jerks in the eyes with a steaming hot french fry straight from the grease...[End Rant]
Sorry about that... It's been a looooooooooong week.
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Post by Void on Dec 10, 2004 18:14:46 GMT -5
The police aren't always in the right, as in the case Zinn stated. I realize a majority of protests are peaceful, which is all well and good, but if it turns violent and there isn't a sufficient force to stop them, they could cause serious damage, and that's just wrong. The police have no right to insult the protesters or attack them. They are there to keep the peace, and their job is to subdue anyone who is destroying property or otherwise causing damage. That is all they should be doing.
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