Sexuality

[Valodya Bassarov]

Post here any arguments about sexuality or relationships.

I started this argument with Void last night concerning polygamy and monogamy.

I do not believe that monogamy is natural, but rather, it arises from certain economic conditions.


I would like to reject capitalist monogamy and return to the polygamy of primitive communist societies, since it allowed for a greater degree gender equality and sexual freedom as
no one was sexually owned by another.

[Satsujin]

Sounds like the 70s. Time for another aids outbreak maybe? hmm?

If you look at animals, yes, monogamy is not natural, at least for most species. But for me, it is a matter of morals. Doing that seems like it would hurt more people than I would be willing to for my own pleasure.

[Valodya Bassarov]

That is a legitimate thing to fear, but I think it is a scare tactic at times to horde people into monogamy. You can get STDs from serial monogamy or even sleeping with one person, who happens to have an STD. Anyone who is sexual at all is at some risk.

Health risks aside, I am just saying that I see nothing morally wrong with being involved with more than one person at a time.

I think that it could hurt someone, and should not be attempted unless it is a mutually understood thing. Most people are raised to not want to share their loved one with others. Most people react with jealousy in such situations.

[Grove]

Well I mentioned my view as far as morals go, and it is true that you can contract STDs from just one person, but if you are involved with only one person the risk is greatly reduced.
And that is true. It is a taught thing, but it is also something one decides for themselves once they learn through their own experiences what is right or wrong. I like to think my views are as pure as I can get them. I always try to see both sides, and when I look at that situation I see someone getting hurt.
What of love? Do you feel that in a situation like that you can equally love both partners? Or is it more likely that over time you will favor the other? Also, do you feel that love need not be involved?

[James]

It is possible to have sex without love. It's nice if you care that way for the person, of course, but you don't necessarily need to.

I think that polygamy is fine until marriage. It's just like dating, you can date more than one person at a time, and after a while it would make sense that you'd sleep together. But naturally when you get married you stop dating, so you stop sleeping with different people.

As for the STD thing, it's really just a matter of trusting the people involved. If you trust someone enough to have sex with them you should trust them enough to know they wouldn't give you a disease.

So whatever, as long as your smart about it.

[Zinn]

I believe in monogamy not because of religion or society or anything like that, but with my ability to deal with emotional involvement.

I don't think I'd be able to have a healthy relationship with more than one person at a time. I have a hard enough time maintaining a relationship with one person.

I suppose in an ideal situation, I have to go with Jello Biafra on this one. I highly suggest listening to his lecture, titled "Lost Oragasm." He talks about how pain-based our society is, and how nice it would be if you could just go up to someone you like, or admire or something, and ask if they want to have sex. Then, if they said no, everything would be fine because it wouldn't be such a big deal. The idea seems rather alien, but it makes sense to me.

Obviously, I believe in safer sex. I've never had sex, but that stems from the fact that I have never found anyone that I think is worth having sex with. My search continues. I have very high standards for getting into my pants so to speak.

I don't like the ownership aspect of culturally accepted relationships. I don't think that it is necissarily for all relationships though. I think the ideal consentual monogamous relationship should be run in an anarcho-fascist manner, with each member totally incharge of his or her self, and joint descisions reached through discussion and compromise.

I think the sort of relationship one finds best is the right one, provided that it doesn't involve harm. Unless that harm is consentual (BDSM stuff. It doesn't really appeal to me at all, but whatever floats your boat I guess...)

[Valodya Bassarov]

Sometimes I just stop and think,"why do I accept certain things as moral and right?" I have been sceptical of monogamy for some time.
Society teaches us that to be monogamous is to be loyal, sexualy virtuous, loving, and so on. That there is something high and holy in chosing just one lover and dedicating yourself to that person.

Monogamy, to me, appears to be selfish, territorial, controlling, limiting of freedom, and stiffling to sexual expression.

It also creates boundaries and inequalities between people. I believe that it would be more desireable if somehow we were all equals with equal access/potential to one another as lovers or sexual partners. Or...in other words, no one has a monopoly on the sexuality of another.

I brought this up since I would like to see that monogamy, among other prevailing notions about sexuality and relationships challenged. There is nothing "natural" about monogamy, since well, for most of human history, people were not monogamous. Even in certain religions and cultures today, it exists. Polygamy seems to occur under certain economic conditions, mainly, the more economically equal people are, the more sexually equal they are.

I am just rambling about something that really doesn't mean much to most people.

I would like to ask then,

What is sexually moral or natural?

[Mikhael Nadyezhda (Mischa)]

((I have heard said Jello Biafra segment by the way. Great CD.))

I think sex is a very taboo subject for most, it's a lot better than say in the 1940's, but still has a ways to go. Sexuality is just one of those things that, to me, seems like one of those basic rights of "no victim no crime". I would like to say that I believe in polygamy, or rather, I'm trying to get over my issues with monogamy, I agree with Bassarov, that it's very much a control issue.

Polygamy in places like Saudia Arabia in my view, is a warped version of monogamy, and is in no way how you should conduct a healthy relationship, that is, one male is given absolute control over 2 or 3 or 4 females. If ANY relationship does not have an equal distribution of power, then that relationship is an unhealthy one. Polygamy is possible if we can overcome our jealousy issues, and understand that a lot of, if not all, of what we feel in regards to cheating, or sleeping around in general, is socially constructed.

Oh, and, I agree whole heartedly with what James said. If you trust someone enough to have sex with them, then you should trust them enough not to have an STD. I mean granted, it's pretty difficult to tell sometimes whether or not you have one, and if anybody has seen the movie Kids, it really makes you understand how easy it is to get one. And on a side note, that movie was probably one of the most depressing movies I've ever seen, second only to Requiem for a Dream.

Oh, what I was getting to... Which is why safer sex is the way to go. I've heard the argument of "the HIV virus is small enough to fit inbetween the seams of the condom, therefore it's possible for you to transmit AIDS to another person even if you're having protected sex", which by the way, is a blatantly fabricated argument used by the church to promote abstinence. I heard it in my health class, and it totally discounts the fact that once the gay community DID start pushing condoms, the AIDS rate amongst gay couples dropped exponentially.

[Mikhael Nadyezhda (Mischa)]

And on the issue of abstinence...

Hey, like I said, whatever you want to do with your sex life is cool, it's none of mine, or anyone else's (including George W Bush's, John Ashcroft's, Joseph Lieberman's, Rush Limbaugh's...) business, but I think the idea of only teaching abstinence is absolutely terrible to teach to teenagers. To me, teaching nothing but abstinence in sex ed is equivalent to making it illegal to drink under age 21. I remember in my international studies class, we had someone from Holland, where the drinking age is either 18 or 19 I can't remember, and where marijuana is legalized, who was showing us pictures of herself and her hometown. One of the pictures she had a joint in one hand, and a beer in the other, everybody giggled. She said "yeah I drank and smoked a little pot, but I don't think it's that interesting. I don't see why everybody in America makes such a big deal out of it. We don't have nearly as big of problems with drugs and alcohol as you guys do."

America has one of the highest drinking ages in the world, and has one of the worst underage drinking problems on the planet. Gee, what a coincidence! When people find out that alcohol is really no big deal when you have it in moderation, and don't feel as though you need to impress anybody with it, then people don't abuse it!

...Anybody see my parallel here?

[Helene AT School]

Funny, I am a apart of that population of drinkers.

1> Ive seen Kids. Great example. I think our society is so hard up on teenagers not having sex, they push protection into a dirty cornor and leave it alone. If someone catches a STD or god forbid AIDS, I think they should be grown enough to get treated and take steps so no one else gets it.

2>Monogamy and Polygamy is okay. I think there are people who prefer one or the other. I really dont support either because Ive never been in a relationship. But if you know you and your partner are comforatable and trusting enough to pull others into that relationship, all the power to you. But, if you know you would go balistic and kill your partner and yourself, dont do it. Leave it ALONE. Whatever floats ya boat.

But let me say this: In the bible (I dont read it often but I know a little something) it says a woman must stay faithful to her husband (or something close to that). But what about men? Sometimes men bring about unknown, unwilling polygamy relationships but expect the main woman to stay strapped down. Some times it is visa versa with women. Is this right? I dont think so...

[Satsujin]

All I have to say about the drinking is that the age set, 21, is set as such for the simple reason that until around that age the average person is not fit physically to handle alchohol properly.

[Noe "Ghost" Carlson]

While I agree that generally in the wilds animals are do not seek single partners, there was creatures who do so.

Pengiuns for lifetime bonds with their mate. The over blown sexuality of modern man and the reality that human women are basically always in heat, it lends credit to the arugement that humans are not biologically mongamus.

However, the capability for sentient thought places a different light on the situation. We can choose if we want to love or not.

While it is possible to break all human emotions and relationships down to their bio-chemical roots I generally choose not to do so.

I generally also don't care what other people do with their sex life but I also don't have a problem addressing the issue with someone if I feel their making a mistake or if I have an opinion. I feel obligated to express my opinion on just about everything.

Ameria is high on the list of all world problems, I don't see why drinking underage would be anymore of a problem. The age was set as a physical matter. Before age 21 (generally, different people grow differently) the material in the human brain is not completely developed and can be harmed by chemical inbalance, namely by the presense of alcohol. I think it needs to say 21.

[Satsujin]

lol That is exactly what I just said.

[Haya-Ji "The Hamster"]

I believe in monogamy. I think that you can never truely love more than one person the same way at the same time. When you love one person it consumes your soul and i doubt anyone has enought in themselves to bestow that kind of emotion on a group of people. To me polygomy (which i do not judge anyone for their choices) seems too exhausting. Me loving just one person is enough to drive me insane. Imagine feeling such strong feelings for two? Or more? I have loved more than one person at the same time i admit...but never to the same degree at the same time. And I choose not to talk about STD's.

And no matter what...love should always be present when engaging in sex. Whether it be friendship or boyfriend/girlfriend you should have some sort of relationship with them. One night stands tend to make people dettached from real relationships. They find it harder to find someone that makes them happy when all they have needed in the past is a little ass.

(I had posted in response to what another rper had posted earlier in the thread. However they deleted their post so now mine makes no sense. So i am modifying it. I really am hurt that it seemed my post caused them to delete their own. They stated their opinion on the roles of men and women because of what it said in the bible *Women are suppose to obey their husbands*...so i stated my opinion and even used bible verses to support it*that those passages were full of bullshyt and were directed at trying to control women*. Oh well...)

[Void]

As Peter stated earlier, some animals do mate for life.

Bassarov, I know you tend to feel a lot of things are biproducts of society, but the easiest way to defend that is how else could society evolve if not for human nature? Most humans, by nature, are monogomous creatures, the fact that not just one or two cultures but just about EVERY single culture in the known world has, at some point in its past (and I do mean distant past) developed the concept of "marriage". We are generally wired to want to mate for life on an intellectual level.

That being said, however, another interesting aspect is despite our intellectual tendancy to wish to mate for life, the fact remains that men have a biological predisposition to mate with many in order to spread their seed, so to speak, whereas women have a biological predisposition to seek out a mate that they can rely on and that will stay around to help raise the family. Take that concept where you will, but it is an interesting study without a doubt.

Quite frankly, I say, as I always tend to say, do as you will. I quite candidly think that you are in the minority as far as general thought processes go, Bassarov, and while I don't agree with many of your ideas, you have every right to have and practice them, so long as they do not interfere with my own life, and I have every right to practice my own ideas, so long as they do not interfere with yours.

As far as the issue of monogamy is concerned, most humans ARE wired to be at least somewhat monogomous (we might divorce, break up, etc. but generally we are only with one partner at a time). I don't think you can refute this, there is much evidence. Some, however, are not, and more power to them. I personally would never do such a thing, but that's my decision.