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Post by Valodya Bassarov on Jan 18, 2005 21:23:22 GMT -5
"Realistic", I happen to believe that we have the power to determine what is real. Ideals can be made into realities, and have been many times in the past. I imagine that to the monarchs, those who drempt of democracy were "idealistic," yet through revolutions and reforms, ideals became realities.
I believe that the world not only can be better, that it will be better. We do not have to be limited by history or the present. Change is a constant in which I put much faith.
And "High and mighty concern for others"? Yeah, I think life is pretty d**n important. I am an atheist and to me, this life is all we have. I think it is precious and should be protected. You may not agree, but I think that life does matter and right now there are a lot of people in this world suffering and dieing because of capitalism.
Lastly, I don't think my ideals are spineless or wimpy. I think that zealously standing against the misery and injustice in this world is something bold and good, whatever the ideals that drive you may be.
Anyway, would you please log in if you wish to post here, since I think it is a little "spineless" that you don't want to reveal who you are. But that is coming from a spineless, wimpy communist.
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Post by Zinn on Jan 18, 2005 21:28:15 GMT -5
On the contary, capitalism hides itself under loads of humanitarian drivel. In fact, most political groups do. Even the Nazis thought they were doing something to help their country.
I read an interesting book called 'The Lexus and the Olive Branch.' I disagreed with most of the book, since its point was that globalization would solve all of the world's problems. it did bring up an interesting point though:
In a society where wealth is the most important factor, switching to a full war economy is expensive, and reduces morale. It is much better to keep people in a state of semi-fear, wrap it in patriotism, and dip whatever war you are fighting in bleach to make it more acceptable. It is the "not in my backyard," or NIMBY style of fighting that the US has had for so long, that makes things so much less personal.
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Post by ofcourse on Jan 18, 2005 21:46:44 GMT -5
Your rhetoric is so frustrating.
Apparently you happen to believe a lot of things, but just believing in something does not mean it will happen nor does it make it true. But I will agree with one thing, ideals have been made into realities but those were probable ideals that did not rely completely on the people to carry them through.
The communist system cannot even be brought up to the level of being a bunch of "ideals" lets not even call them that how about dreams. The system is based on dreams. The dreams of a few delusional old men who left their country to fall at the hands of a dictator and their precious system to be made into a joke.
If Communism ever does come into serious power again be sure the same thing will happen, your system was created to be exploited. It's ironic, something created to protect the individually weak (since I know you like to think of the people as a whole as being very powerful), that it has done nothing but leave a once proud country in ruins, and exploit it's people even more.
Atleast with capitalism there is hope, it is a high price to pay for such hope but like I said I am willing to pay. Also, if the lives of some have to be sacrificed to insure the survival of a system and those who live under it than atleast they have died for a purpose, not for something that was destined to fall like communism.
Anyway the computer I'm at right now won't let me log into anything in for some reason, I will do my best to explain such things earlier when I join a conversation, I apologize for that. It's Calithin. Of course.
To Zinn : Well, I suppose the general public does see capitalism as very pro-person. I was speaking mostly for myself there.
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Post by Valodya Bassarov on Jan 18, 2005 23:21:28 GMT -5
I think I could write a 20 page paper in response to that, but I will keep this short.
How does a person tell realistic ideals from the fanciful ones? Is there some reality litmus test that we can hold it up to?
I don't put a cap on what is possible for humans to accomplish under the right conditions. Why do you? I think if we can explore our solar system, sending probes to Titan or people to the moon, is it really unrealistic to think that maybe someday everyone in the world will have enough? Or maybe someday people can end war?
And if you really want to know, I don't really care what system does this. If capitalism can end war or feed everyone, then I would be procapitalist. However, I don't think that these goals can happen under capitalism since it seems to me that this economic system has caused many of the problems that I am so against.
I don't think we can find the cure within the disease.
For one, I don't think the solution is in this system because as I stated before, the nature of capitalism is economic competition which turns violent when competition for markets and resources becomes too fierce.
Secondly, this hope that you talk about is a false hope. Most people live and die in the class that they were born into. We base the American dream off of a few anomalies who went from rags to riches. For most people, this just won't happen, because capitalism wouldn't work if everyone could become rich. There needs to be a working majority of people whose labor can be exploited for the gain of a wealthy few.
Thirdly, I am against this system since well, it really doesn't make sense. Depression and recessions? Economic cycles? Why? I think it is a lot more logical to plan an economy for the good of everyone than to rely on the capricious whims of economic cycles, in which EVEN RICH PEOPLE LOSE from time to time. I have spoken with you before and so I know you like things to be predictable, but capitalist economics is anything but.
Furthermore, in the anarchy of capitalist production, there are times where surplus food is destroyed while people are starving, simply because it is not profitable to sell that food. Capitalist economics is blind to human need.
To address your point about communism being doomed to fail, that is a common arguement. Looking at the plot of this rpg should be proof that I have thought of that. But communism failed for many reasons. For one, the revolution was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Russia was not a highly industrialized capitalist society at the time of the revolution. So it had this against it. You see, in a highly industrialized capitalist society, the workers are exploited, however, it does enjoy the perks of industries and modern production which can meet the needs of people once it becomes worker owned. Socialism will not work in a society whose economy is not geared to produce enough to meet the needs of the people. For instance, in this country, I am confident that we have the means to meet people's needs, but have chosen not to. So if we suddenly became socialist, we would not face the same problems that agrarian 1917 Russia did.
Another reason why communism failed is because it can not exist in one country alone, or 3 countries, or 10 countries. Communist revolution must be international. Since this did not happen, Russia was forced to fight resistance from within and from without. So rather than dealing with the many challenges of building socialism in such a vast country they also had to defend it from the outside world. This is bound to mess things up a little, which Mischa argues very well, by the way.
So the failure of communism was not because of some flaw inherrent in our beliefs, but, because of the impossible odds against it to start with.
And it is easy to look at Stalinism as the reason why socialism can't work, but you can look to Europe which is dominated by another branch of socialism...democratic socialism. This is maybe a brighter example of the good that can come from the ideals of Marx, or a delusional dead guy as you put it.
I am neither a Stalinist or a democratic socialist, but these are cousins to my own ideals. Democratic socialism has brought high standards of living, health care, education, etc. to many countries in Europe, and though it maintains a free market, there are income caps, many industries are socially owned, and it offers the many of the social benefits promised by revolutionary socialism. So if you look at it this way, socialism has had failures and gains.
I have already ranted for too long. I will add more later if I feel like it. Otherwise I will let Mischa have a shot at it as well.
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Post by Mikhael Nadyezhda (Mischa) on Jan 19, 2005 12:02:20 GMT -5
I love how this topic started out as a discussion about how our foreign policy is so messed up, and then mutated into another "communism will never work" discussion. Oh well, these are equally entertaining.
I for one have a very optimistic world view, and I've come to realize in my 21 years of existence, that not many capitalists share the same world view. They all think war is inevitable, that people are always greedy and will never change, or that wealth is a sign of prosperity, and that poor people are poor on their own volition. Which I really can't blame them for, seeing as how multi-billionaires are often born into the wealth that they have, or if not, see the fact that they were able to gain so much money, and why can't those d**n poor people just get their nuts together and not ask for any "handouts" (god I hate that term).
The corporate media is always so eager to portray these rags to riches stories, but when the balloons of the stock market come crashing down, they seldom, if ever, tell what the human consequences are behind them. As Bassarov stated, capitalism is *far* from predictable, supply and demand is possibly the most random economic theory ever implemented since it's reliant upon so many variables. Under capitalism, in most cases, demand is something that's artificially created, which explains why the spending went up towards advertising, exponentially in the past 50 years, and probably has at least something to do with the rise in mental illness, including anorexia.
Call me a communist (ha ha!!) but it f**king makes sense to create things based upon what people actually need, then distribute it, which is what socialism is, and not create as much as humanly possible, and try to find people to distribute it to, which is capitalism. Capitalism's biggest crisis is that of over production, as Bassarov mentioned, they destroy food if they can't sell it. Clearly, there are f**king hungry people in the world, and deserve a right to life, (to use a right wing slogan [which is a hugely hypocritical slogan, but I'm not even going to get into that]) and how can you have a right to life without food? How can you have a right to life without a chance to get a decent education? Or what if you get sick? What if you just *happen* to be born into the bottom 50+% of the world who has been kept under the heel of capitalism for the past hundred years, and can't afford any of the above? Move? With what money? I don't think making $.50 an hour is going to be enough to let you put some money away for a plane ticket, or even a f**king raft ride to the United States in search for a "better tommorow" for your family. Yeah we all look around the United States at how capitalism is gleaming, but where does that obscene amount of wealth come from?
As for working within the system, let me make one more plug for revolution here. As long as we live under a system that doesn't bother to look at the human needs for a given area, and distribute them as are needed, then we will never be able to raise the standards of living of the poor of the world. Capitalism has so thoroughly conquered the globe, that yes, it NEEDS war to perpetuate itself. The war in Iraq is a microchasm of a much bigger problem. The United States had to outmaneuver its European competitors in the global oil markets. The countries within the UN didn't oppose the war in Iraq because of humanitarian reasons, they opposed it because they were getting shafted by it! A lot of that oil was earmarked for Russia and France, of course they're going to be pissed off when another power comes in and bests them at their own game.
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Post by Helene on Jan 19, 2005 15:47:03 GMT -5
psst... this is a thread about America's f**kED UP forgein policy. We can go through the "communism will never work" conversation again but it would be futile since we've done it so many times, everyone believes it.
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Post by Zinn on Jan 19, 2005 17:35:47 GMT -5
MOD: Please indicate who you are if you are posting in the political forum, or sign in on your sn. Also, regardless of my beliefs on Communism, the word 'rhetoric' is not to be used when talking about other people's opinions, since it is a loaded word, and since what you are spouting also happens to be rhetoric, albeit capitalist rhetoric. I haven't been reading the posts here very thoroughly because I haven't been feeling well, but I think I have to do so now.
Unknown Guest: Do not call anyone else's opinion unrealistic, drivel, spineless, wimpy, rhetoric, etc. unless you can put your money where your mouth is, and frankly, you haven't been. I am not a communist or a capitalist, so do not think that this decision is based on some sort of bias. Also, Helene, tone down the swearing when it comes to the discussion of politics. I know I'm one to talk, but I think it cheapens the discussion somewhat when it is used excessively. If you want to use strong language, go ahead, but back it up, please.
This discussion is already in the discussion thread, so take it there.
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Post by AK47 on May 9, 2005 18:58:08 GMT -5
Bush is the dummest son of a pregnant dog i have ever known. im persian and i aint scared of no ww3 cuz we will bomb bush and his whole crew of republicans 2. ;D cant nobody mess wit iran. we ant as weaka dn stupid as iraq and we actually got nukes. pregnant dogAS  |
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Post by gfd on Dec 28, 2005 1:18:08 GMT -5
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Post by yyyy on Apr 6, 2006 1:23:33 GMT -5
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Post by gre on May 11, 2006 3:00:31 GMT -5
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Post by kjkj on May 14, 2006 10:28:13 GMT -5
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Post by jkkj on May 14, 2006 10:28:35 GMT -5
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Post by tytyt on May 14, 2006 16:37:25 GMT -5
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Post by Advies on Jun 8, 2006 13:28:42 GMT -5
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