How would you run the government?

[Void]

Then why not just move there when you are able and let America rot in its capitalist filth?

Or, to put it another way, why not move and allow Americans to live as they choose?

[Valodya Bassarov]

And the rpg favorite... Finland.


I am all for any reform towards the betterment of human life and certainly support the democratic socialist governments of Europe over the United States.
But I think that reforms can only be pushed so far and that as long as power remains in the hands of a wealthier class, those reforms can be rolled back.
Hence, that is why I feel that until power is in the hands of the working masses, that is, the majority of the population whose toils allow for the power and wealth of a ruling elite, reform can not be counted upon.

Which is why I do not look to the democratic socialist governments of europe as the answer to issues of class oppression.

To me, it is capitalism packaged in a prettier way.

[Josef Stalin]

To answer your question, Void; as embarassed as I am, I'm on a no-fly list.


Bassarov, you do have a point. As long as the wealthy classes rule, we will have nothing but a repeat of those old Zorro movies. (just a metaphor. I know there won't really be some guy in a mask running around and fighting the rich.) The masses should indeed be run by the common man, not the wealthy classes. The richest 2% of America, in our case.

A socialistic government, which looks out for the good of all the common people rather than the greed of the rich and wealthy, along with the unavoidable reform this would cause worldwide, could lead to a new era of peace and prosperity. An era without so much sensless war like in Iraq. An era where incidents like Greneda won't happen anymore. I could go on for hours, but I think that'd piss some people off.

[Valodya Bassarov]

How did you get on the no fly list?

That would really suck. I think I would commit suicide if that happened to me.

[Void]

However, a great deal of us are quite happy with the system, though we do believe it can be reformed.

It's all about where your locus of control is. I believe that I can make a difference in the government and thus I shall do so. I also believe in the basic values America was founded on, and am generally content with the way I am able to live my life. Trust me, if you were to try to overthrow the government at this point in time, there would be open insurrection against you. Most people (be it through ignorance or otherwise) do not want the government to change and are happy with the way it is right now.

Frankly, I do not want to live in a socialist society, I can respect the notion but it would be hellish for me, and therefore I will fight to defend the government, flawed though it is.

However, if all you want to do is oust Bush, you have my blessing.

[Josef Stalin]

Well, long story short, I said things I shouldn't have said. An angry mob started forming, charges of terrorism were brought on, it was a pain in the arse... anyway, I made bail. But, in addition to my community service, I'm on a no fly list.

[Josef Stalin]

Ousting Bush is priority numero uno. I'm aware that a socialist revolution will take much time and Bush and his Halliburton friends will only make it that much more difficult. I HATE BUSH!! He cheated in the election again and deserves an empeachment and shameful ejection equal, if not greater than Nixon's!!

[Void]

Ironically I was hoping that Bush go the way of Nixon.

However, I do reiterate the point that a socialist revolution will more than likely be utterly unwelcome in America for years to come.

[Lady Violet]

Nothing lasts forever. Capitalism is a dying star in history. Burning brightly, but lacking the fuel to last forever. It will burn out, it is just a matter of time.

[Zinn]

A no fly list....

Are you joking? Dude, what did you do? I've had friends that have been arrested for protesting and charged for inciting riots/disturbing the peace (even though we all happen to be pacifists...) and one of my friends even got convicted and sentenced to three months. He can still fly on planes.

I never thought I would live to see the day I could be considered a moderate... wow....

I disagree with both Bassarov and Void, and find myself somewhere in the middle. Oooohh, spooky.

Anyway, I totally disagree with the "America: love it or leave it" mindset, because we need dissent to function as a proper representative democracy.

Here is how I see America: The pros and cons.

Pro:
In theory, America is based upon freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, and freedom of religion, which are the fundamentals of a free society. Theoretically, the right to swing your fist is supposed to be guaranteed, but that right stops at someone's face.

Con:
Key words: theory and theoretically

Pro:
Americans are supposed to have the right to choose their own ruler, that best represents them.

Con:
We have a choice between Richey Rich and Mr. Moneybags, who attended the same college and have almost the same political beliefs, because the majority is too stupid to figure out that there are more than two parties in the system.

Pro:
The free media is supposed to allow people to draw their own descisions.

Con:
The propoganda/etertainment style of news popularized by Fox.

Pro:
Everyone is supposed to be equal under the law, with equal rights.

Con:
But god wouldn't want that, or something. Whatever the Religious Right's argument is this week.

Pro:
Separation of church and state.

Con:
Ignorance and the blurring of the issue by people who pretend to know what the founding fathers think, even though Jesus is America isn't anywhere in the Constitution. These also tend to be the same people that think they know what god thinks.

Pro:
Theoretically, everyone is supposed to have a chance to make it.

Con:
Reality: only if you're born into opportunity.

So, that's America today in a nutshell. I am not happy with the system, but I think it is fixable.

As for socialism well...

I have taken the following out of America: The Book by the writers of the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Please do not sue me Comedy Central. I quote because I love.

Your typical day: Standing in line for tickets to the toilet paper line.

Your favourite kind of war: Let's check with the local revolutionary council.

Your standard Breakfast: Vodka

How are you most likely to die?: Combination boredom/ industrial accident.

Why are you being jailed?: First Degree Yard Sale

Your pet peeves: Money

What's your take on genital mutilation?: I support genital mutilation if it helps people.
------------

As for the dying... well... yeah. I agree. I think the ship is still worth saving though. And if not, I really doubt what follows with be socialist. My guess would be dictatorship/military junta.

[Void]

Well, I'm actually not one of the "love it or leave it" types, HOWEVER, I do take exception to people plotting to overthrow the nation that I do love and replace it with something I abhor (I'm not saying that Socialism is bad, but pure socialism I find extremely distasteful). After all, it is my goal to become a journalist so that I can expose the corruption within the system. I wholly support dissent, but I do not want to see a socialist revolution, or any other type of revolution for that matter. America has its problems, yes, but it can be fixed.

I do not see Capitalism as a dying form, really, nor do I object to SOME socialism within a government. A government should be varied, I believe any pure form of government is imperfect. The best we can do is blend all forms of government until we create a composite that should be acceptable for most people.

[Mikhael Nadyezhda (Mischa)]

((Sorry I haven't been on more, and of course I come online to debate in the political forum and not post on the stupid main thread... Mike earns +2 slacker points.))

[rant]Well Void, truth be told, I think you're being a little, where do I start... Closed minded, hostile, condescending, take your pick, in this debate here. If you really do believe in the founding principles of this nation, you would believe in bloody revolution, which is what this country was founded on. One ruling class against another. Anyways... A quick list for you.
1. The points you bring up are not new. They are wonderful illusions brought forth by the ruling class to perpetuate capitalism.
2. We are not stupid. Nor do we just go along with what our party line because we are mindless robots who don't believe in democracy.
3. Your view of Bassarov and mine's politics are skewed and wrong.
4. Your view of socialism is skewed and wrong.
5. Your view of capitalism is skewed and wrong.

So, now that we have that out of the way... The argument of "leave America be" is just blatantly hypocritical. Because after all, since I idealize Finland (which we don't, we think it's better but not perfect), why don't you just move there? Since that's what democracy is all about right? Export all the people who don't like the way things are in the country. That argument sounds more Stalinist (no offense Stalin) than capitalist.[/rant]

Ahem, sorry about that. You do a really good job of pushing the right buttons sometimes Void. So, anyways...

"...this country was founded on a group of white, unelected, landowners who said that 'all men are created equal'. Yeah, except for indians, black persons, and women, right?" - George Carlin.

That's my view of the founding fathers of this country. Our rights weren't given to us by some benevolent president, they were written into the constitution for the ruling class, fought for by the working class, (which includes women, blacks, latinos, etc.), and once the wealthy elite felt that they couldn't contain the masses anymore without granting concessions, they allowed a middle class to be created. (Read A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn)

What do we have? A 40 hour work week, fought for through bloody struggle. 8 hour work day, fought for through bloody struggle. Child labor laws, fought for through bloody struggle. Environmental laws... I think you know what I'm getting at here. Every major fundamental human f**king right that we have was fought for, and earned through bloody class war between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, not by some rich white collar professional politician who has more corporate ties than Mickey Mouse.

And to address what Zinn was saying, in theory, we have all of these wonderful rights, but big business has so thoroughly conquered the globe and competition is so intense, that the "little guy" really doesn't have much of a chance to survive. Just ask Wal Mart. And as for socialism. That happens in Russia because there wasn't enough to go around. Socialist revolution isn't supposed to happen in places like Russia where they could barely feed themselves under the Czar. It's supposed to happen in places like the United States, that has the ability to end hunger tommorow. The wonderful future that George Orwell paints under a Stalinist government is a great deterrant to put any faith into socialism, but George Orwell was a Trotskyist speaking out against Stalinism. Read Animal Farm if you haven't already, it's about the Russian Revolution. (Snowball = Trotsky)

[Mikhael Nadyezhda (Mischa)]

And of course now I must depart for work. Have a good evening.

[Void]

And you seem to misunderstand much of what I believe. I know Capitalism isn't perfect, but I don't see Socialism as any better. I've discussed these things with Bassarov before, again, I am not necessarily saying that what you believe is a BAD thing, but again, I would not like it at all. Call it close-minded if you will, but I simply do not think the same way that you do.

Now, where EVER did I call any of you stupid? If you think I have, you are quite mistaken, I assure you. If you can pick out some area where it seems I have I'd be more than happy to tell you what I mean.

As far as the comments about the ruling class keeping their hold, I tend to view things differently. It's all about your personal locus of control, I believe that the system can be changed from within, you believe it must be changed from without. Again, differing viewpoints.

Now then, I can and do state with great fervor that I dislike the concept of total socialism. I do not believe it to be wrong, but personally I do not think it can work, and it generally bothers me. I DO believe that certain things should be socialized, but again, pure socialism, as with pure anything, is something I abhor. I believe there should be a mix of different philosophies, as I've stated before.

I have no illusions about Capitalism I can assure you. I am well aware of the pros and cons in the system, but I do believe that it works, and will continue to do so until someone comes up with a better way (again, I do not think that Socialism is a better way). I very much enjoy the concept of personal ownership and I fully support a person's ability to make money in a way that they choose. I do believe certain laws and regulations are necessary, but I do think that people should generally have the freedom to live as they will and make money as they will. There are ideas I do support, but I also concede that we should not restrict someone from what they earn, no matter the way they earn it. For example, while the concept of professional sports annoys me to no end, as does their salaries, the fact that it brings in so much money does give them the right to that money. I would not deny them that, nor would I deny an inventor who invents a time-saving machine the money that he or she makes from that.

[Dr. Andrea Murdock]

((Too lazy to switch over to my Zinn account again. +1 lazy point for me. Yay! I will defeat you all.... IT'S ON!!! Bring on the Lazolympics!))

OK moderator time: Everyone chill. Seriously. Take a deep breath. I know I am a bad example of keeping chill, but nobody has called anyone *insert insult demeaning intellegence here* and I'm not going to have people start now.

Mischa- He didn't say that, and he does have the right to say he doesn't believe in a revolution. That doesn't mean he doesn't understand socialism, it just means he sees things differently than you do. No biggie. Void has backed up his opinions sufficiently. Everyone's view is skewed. That's part of the human condition. That doesn't mean he is wrong, nor does it mean you are wrong. If there was a definite right answer to this stuff, nobody would bother having these coversations.

Void- Try to use softer language. Chill.

OK, now for my two cents.

Americans have the right to revolution, actually. The catch? Only if the revolution succeeds. America was founded on the concept that if the people don't like it, they can take up their pitchforks and do their thing, but only if they win.

I happen to like Orwell a great deal. However, Napoleon stole Snowball's idea for the windmill, and it still turned out to be a disaster. Perhaps Snowball would have done it with more consideration and compassion, but either way, the animals were in for a long, hard period of labour that was doomed to failure. I think he was trying to say something with that.

I dislike socialist systems for a few reasons.

1) Kibbutzim are communal farms that are probably the purest form of socialism on Earth. They show some of the problems.
a) They have HUGE drug and alchohol problems.
b) There are no shortages. People often just flat out refuse to work. They lack the idealism that the founders had.

2) Everything is owned by the government.

I don't trust the government, no matter what its current supposed intentions are. I know that the final goal if socialism means that a government will be uncessisary. It's the mean time that never seems to end that I don't like. Throughout history, people do not give up power without a fight when they have it, even if it is for the greater good.

3) I acknowlege the accomplishments that the socialist movement has made in the US for schooling, unions (the anarchists were in on this one too), and many other things we take for granted.

4) Theoretically, I like the idea of personal property. I don't like the idea of people becoming superpowerful. I think the answer to that is to put caps on how much money people are allowed to have in the first place. The rest goes to the government for schools and stuff. Think about it. They could probably get every school in America some decent new text books by getting all of Bill Gate's extra money. That way, people would still be motivated to work, but they wouldn't be able to be oppressive, bribing weasels.